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Since this is Handtops.com and the vast majority of "handtop devices" (OQO's, Sony UX's, Flipstart's, UMPC's, etc) lack optical drives, I thought this would be good a place to discuss this topic.
Before getting to far, I offer my "opinion" of the current state of things. As I understand it, when I buy a movie on DVD or music on a CD, I'm paying for a license to listen to or watch the media. I don't own the copyright. I cannot resell it while keeping a copy for myself. I cannot legally play it in a public forum. Thus, what I own is technically the plastic casing and disk, as well as a license to view/listen to it. And, in the case of CDs, even if the lyrics are printed inside the case, while I own the paper they're printed on, the lyrics themselves are copyrighted material and I cannot legally reprint them. Similarly, if I buy Windows XP, I am buying a case, a plastic form of media, an End User License Agreement, and a license to install and use a single copy of the software. I am, not, however entitled to the source code of the operating system. [If I'm wrong about any of this, please correct me].
Now, as I also understand it, there is either a law or a portion of a law referred to commonly as "Fair Use". This provision allows me to make a single (just one) copy of a piece of digital media that I have purchased specifically "for backup purposes". Whether this be a music CD, a movie DVD, or an operating system or other software, I'm allowed to make a single copy of it so that I have a fallback in the event the original media is damaged. [This, though, doesn't cover loss... in other words, if I buy Windows XP and I copy the CD and write the CD key on it, then lose the original, I cannot technically use the copy on my system because someone could find the original and use it... definitely a loophole of sorts, to be sure]. Now, the Fair Use provision does not specific the format of the copy I am legally allowed to make. I could, for example, copy my Wiindows XP CD to another CD. Or I could copy a movie DVD to a digital format (ie: rip it to Xvid or Divx). I could also make it a Virtual CD (VCD), and be able to store it on a hard drive, but access it like a normal CD.
Now for many of us with smaller devices that lack an onboard optical drive, storing a CD in MP3 format or a DVD compressed into Xvid format is the ideal way to take our media with us, whether that be to listen to music in an iPod or to watch a movie on a flight (there's also the added benefit of better battery life as you don't have an optical drive spinning).
But this makes me wonder about the legality of "downloading movies". Case in point... let's say I buy the DVD "Gone in 60 Seconds". As previously noted, I have purchased a license to watch the movie (as often as I like) and legal provisions allow me to make a copy of it while not restricting the format of the copy. Now let's say I completely lack an optical drive. Shouldn't it be completely legal for me to download a copy of "Gone in 60 Seconds" from someone else that has made a copy of it available for download? Technically speaking, I own a license to view the movie and technically speaking I'm allowed to store a copy of it in another format. So why is it illegal for me to download? Put in another view, why is it illegal for someone else to make it available for download? Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the person downloading it to ensure they have a license to view it?
I know there are many tangents we can go down with this subject. And I know its been discussed before. The DMCA has the FairUse provision, yet the RIAA and MPAA want to make it illegal to share the media or to download it, even if you bought a copy of it. I'm sure they and some here will say that 99% of those that download media haven't bought the license to use it. But sadly, they are lumped into the same group of people who, like myself, prefer to download a copy I'm licensed to use that someone else ripped instead of ripping it myself.
Please feel free to post your comments. I for one believe that piracy is wrong. However, I also believe that technology moves faster than most laws allow. At this time, I own somewhere close to 300 DVDs. I've ripped perhaps five of them to Xvid, yet I've downloaded digital copies of perhaps 100 of them. Apparently, what I've been doing is illegal, yet perfectly legal as well. Odd...
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08/08/06
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MeanSquare
SuppOrtLinux: I'm a firm believer in the "Fair Use" concept. One of the issues with the Millenium Copyright Law was that, in some ways it could have been interpreted as going against fair use. In actual practice, fair use translates into making a copy or even copies of content that you legitimately own for purposes of either protecting the original medium (not wanting to risk scratching the original DVD) or to allow you to play the content in a device that doesn't support the original medium (your example of not having an optical drive). While I'm not a lawyer, I do not know of a case that has actually been won against someone transfering content to a different medium for personal use only. You could check with the Electronic Frontier Foundation for specifics.
Another aspect of Fair Use involves person use only. You cannot take even the original medium and use it for a public event without permission of the content owner. Churches who use music and words often sign a bulk contract with a content provider to allow them to do just that in worship, but only with the content covered by the content provider. Also, you are allowed to show a small portion of content as a "preview." Legalities vary from location to location, but generally amount to 30 to 90 seconds.
As to the example of downloading content that you own in another format from someone else, you aren't violating the law, but the other person is (!!) unless they can verify that you actually own the content and, in that case, may actually have to rip your content rather than using their own. I recently saw an article that said that WalMart (of all places) may be offering ripping services for their customers for a fee (and until someone in the RIAA figures out a way to shut them down).
Like you, I'm very much against piracy, but very much adamant that what I'm paying for is the content, not the format or medium. It amazes me how clouded the issue can become simply because it involves technology. For some reason, when you involve a computer, people are willing to say all kinds of things that simply don't make sense if they were talking about non-electronic media.
edited: Aug 08 2006
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fil
The interesting part is that from format to format, the laws are different in the US and abroad.
It's understandable, there is a lot of piracy going on, especially when it comes to music. Based on my college experience alone, I feel sorry for many game developers, recording artists, and the movie industry.
Audio Cd's
DVDs
Downloadable content
Recordable content (Music)--iTunes, Sirus (just got sued and a device pulled from the market)
Recordable content (Movies)--AOL, iTunes, YouTube, Google, MTV, etc.
PC Software
Gaming Software
I think the best rule of thumb for us handtopers is:
1. Have an original copy of the media
2. Be able to show proof of purchase
3. Do not share the copies
4. Do not sell the copies
5. Keep a low profile
6. Use encryption for your personal use media (be responsible for the content)
I also am not advocating piracy.
I want to be able to record a TV show and watch it later on my handtop while I'm out and about and have some downtime, listen to my music mixes, play games using an emulator (for example, PS1 games, Atari games, Sega, etc.), watch movies that I've converted to Divx or WMV, etc.
What's completely odd to me is that the Personal Media Player market is completely ignored by the MPAA. The sole purpose for these devices is to play Divx- or WMV-based movies on these handhelds.
Even Microsoft is not prepared by the legal possibilities because they just retracted the feature-set of the Zune and Zune service.
Apple is still trying to figure out their iTunes movie download and play model.
The MPAA is leaving companies alone that convert DVDs for phone, PocketPC, or PSP use such as dvdtoPocketPC and PQDVD, but they shutdown direct DVD copying software DVDXCopy from 321 Studios.
Don't get me started about DRM...yikes that's nuts.
Basically Digital content has confused the industry.
I agree, in general I think that I'm purchasing the content. I'm still annoyed that I payed for 3 versions of Mortal Kombat--VHS, VCD, and DVD. I enjoy my Divx version while on the road on my handtop.
08/08/06
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fil
!!!REMINDER TO ALL TO NOT TURN THIS INTO A PIRACY DISCUSSION!!!
08/08/06
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selat
As I am not at all versed on Divx and codecs, would this work using a memory stick on the UX? link Looks interesting for someone not all that knowledgeable in this area.
08/09/06
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Supp0rtLinux
selat - yes, it works fine. I've spent the last few weeks doing a dvd a day... basically, I have a spare tower at work with a fast DVD reader, 4Gb of RAM and dual 3.2Ghz Xeons. I paid for the pro version of Fair Use so I could rip my movies to a data size and resolution size that I preferred (the free version is a bit limiting). Each morning, I start ripping one, and its done by the end of the day (typically 4 to 7 hours depending on the size). I then copy the .avi files to a 1Tb LaCie external USB 2.0 drive, which is both encrypted and not shared by any sharing programs (BitTorrent, LimeWire, etc). When I want a movie (or two or three), I connect the LaCie via USB to my UX and copy them to my SanDisk 4Gb ProDuo card. I then watch them from the ProDuo card as it requires less power consumption than viewing from the internal hard disk. To my knowledge, I'm in my complete legal right to do what I'm doing, though there are some legal questions surrounding it. Technically speaking, I'm not making a backup copy which is what the FairUse provision provides for. In actuality, I'm doing it for convenience. Apparently the legal "grey area" is what MeanSquare mentioned. I'm allowed to make a backup copy... and I'm allowed to convert the media for use in a type of media that my device doesn't support (in the case of the UX, a native optical drive). The problem is that my UX *does* allow for use with an optical drive, albeit externally, and apparently this puts me in violation of the DMCA. In a nutshell, the wording makes it appear that since I have the capability of viewing the media in its native format, I'm committing a crime by doing it for *other purposes*.
fil - Good point. This isn't meant to be a piracy discussion. I don't advocate piracy and I don't believe anyone else should. Besides, its not like we need to discuss it... a simple google search for something like "download movies" will provide anything anyone needs. Perhaps the most ironic thing is that when you google for "fairuse" the first hits are to a software program for ripping DVDs, not the provision in the DMCA. I'm sure this thrills the RIAA and MPAA. And for anyone that's considering pirating, I caution you that your IPs *ARE* tracked. I was recently using BitTorrent (for legal reasons... downloading Fedora Core 5) and noticed that I could drill in on the options and see the hosts I was downloading from. If I can see them, then they can see me... which means if the MPAA or RIAA want to trap people, they simply need to seed a torrent of a copyrighted movie, etc and track who downloads it. In other words, if you have an IP address, your steps are traceable (unless you know how to cover them, but considering what I do for a living, I won't say anything more).
MeanSquare - interesting points. I too spent some time at church... running the projector putting songs on the wall, etc. I remember having to deal with getting permissions from the various studios to do so. I also recall a few Christian recording groups that were totally kewl with the idea until their lawyers stepped up and demanded we pay a fee. Oh, well...
08/09/06
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selat
Support. Thank you. So I am able to put a DVD in the Neuros recorder and record to a memory stick and then simply put the memory stick in the UX and it will play ok-there is nothing else I would have to do? What about the screen resolution of the Neuros-is it sufficient? This seems like its too simple of a solution as a way to be able to play DVD's and/or TV shows on the UX.
08/09/06
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Supp0rtLinux
Honestly, I know nothing of Neuros. I use the software program called FairUse as described above. Its free to use or you can get some extra options with the purchasable version. In general, FairUse will take you through about 6 steps to rip a DVD to an .avi file that you can then transfer to a memory stick. You can get good results by sticking to the defaults and the "auto detect" options and simply clicking Next. It takes roughly 4 to 7 hours depending the size of the movie and whether you encode the video once or twice (twice is default). I do this from a PC, though, so again, I can't speak for Neuros. You're on your own there...  And, TV shows would be a different format... typically, at least in my experience, TV shows don't need to be unencrypted, decoded, and re-encoded... at least not ones stored on your typical DVR. I know my Scientific Atlanta DVR from Cox stores in MP4 format and has both USB and firewire ports, so I'm able to plug in a USB memory stick and copy the files to it, then to a PC and view them in Quicktime or another MP4 capable player (such as a PSP).
08/09/06
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selat
Support, thanks again for your extensive comments.
08/09/06
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Supp0rtLinux
selat - just followed your link to the Neuros. While I haven't used it myself, it seems pretty straight forward... it seems to imply you run the component AV cables out from your DVD player to the Neuros, then record on the Neuros to a memory stick. The default being to iPod or PSP implied MP4 format which is playable on a PC with quicktime (delivered for free if you download iTunes). I can't speak for movie size, resolution, etc... but it seems like a simple device for the unintiated. I prefer FairUse as it gives me control over the size of the AVI file and the resolution... plus .avi's are a bit more portable than MP4 format... but still, seems like a decent device. Then again, its $150 while FairUse is free or $20 depending on which version you get...
08/09/06
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MeanSquare
SuppOrt: I haven't used Fair Use myself. I should look into it. I use DVD Shrink to get a single VOB, then DivX Converter to make it an AVI. The process takes around the same time as you mentioned for Fair Use, but requires one non-automated step in the middle.
fil: Thanks for reminding thread viewers that this isn't about piracy. The pirates are the ones who've messed things up for the rest of us, making people like the RIAA think they need to use all manner of annoying DRM to stop them. Piracy is also the reason why many book authors (like Tom Clancy) don't have their works available in electronic format.
08/09/06
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zorg
This thread contains a lot of misinformation about fair use (the concept, not the software package). Why? Just googling, I find that the very first hit is link , containing a vast amount of information that contradicts what Supp0rtLinux and fil are saying here. Perhaps if I googled fairuse instead of fair use, I would have gotten the ironic result mentioned by Supp0rtLinux.
Also, courts have ruled that copying media is not equivalent to stealing and must be covered by different rules. As a result, the term "piracy", implying stealing, is really favored by the major labels and their reps, not by consumer rights organizations advocating fair use. Using the term "piracy" is a lot like some people use the word "tolerance" in a discussion of race: it signals to other racists that you are on their side of the argument, without having to say so. Every charged issue has these kinds of signaling words that help you identify your allies and enemies.
As a result, when fil warns us not to have a "piracy" discussion after he and Supp0rtLinux give misinformation, it sounds as if he is slanted toward the viewpoint of RIAA and MPAA, rather than that he is neutral and honestly wants everyone else to remain that way. So it's difficult to resist at least suggesting that people look at link or similar sites to get a different perspective.
08/09/06
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Supp0rtLinux
zorg - good points, though I don't think Fil's "no piracy" comment was meant as a buzzword for his taking the RIAA's or MPAA's side... rather, if I'm not mistaking, he's a moderator on Handtops and one of Handtops rules is no discussions of pirating (the verb, not the noun), warez, etc. Thus, as a moderator, he was subtly reminding us to be careful where the conversation went so it wouldn't end up deleted like *someone's* [sic: mine] GadgetSlut thread did. Also, you are correct, a google search for "fairuse" yields much different results than one for "fair use". As for misinformation, I was actually assigned the none-too-pleasant task of reading through the entire DMCA and its provisions and post legal amendments and precedents as part of an investigation I'm working on. I've heard bits and pieces as I've read Slashdot and other sites through the years, but was quite appalled when I actually studied it and learned what is considered legal and illegal in the DMCA and how many of the rights of US citizens are trampled by it. However, its worth pointing out that its out-dated. As I stated originally, technology moves much faster than the laws are created and enacted. Its my opinion that the DMCA simply needs some serious updating and/or overhauling.
BTW: I think your thought of "buzzwords" is quite misleading... after all, I can "tolerate" your comment just fine without *signalling* who's side I may be on.
Way OT - speaking of Tom Clancy... the one movie they haven't made yet that I would absolutely love to see made is Without Remorse. I really wish they'd do it...
08/09/06
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hishamh
MeanSquare said: "SuppOrt: I haven't used Fair Use myself. I should look into it. I use DVD Shrink to get a single VOB, then DivX Converter to make it an AVI. The process takes around the same time as you mentioned for Fair Use, but requires one non-automated step in the middle.
"
I recommend it. I've pretty much backed up my entire DVD collection using the free version, mainly making Pocket PC friendly formats. Most times, even using the slow as molasses desktop I have at work, it takes about 2-4 hours for the encoding process, depending on the options you pick.
08/09/06
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2disbetter
I use DVD Shrink as well. Then encrypt it with some pocket pc program I got off handango or something. It works well enough. I just hacked my ipod nano for video and the compression is not bad.
As for the piracy rules and the like, I only know that I am allowed to make backups. I have never even thought about reading the laws on it, as Support pointed out tech and law are never on the same page.
08/10/06
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blackmane
If memory serves, CDs and DVDs are quite different. When Philips - with some help from Sony - introduced the CD they carried on the tradition of records and tapes which were governed by the various intelectual property laws of the time. The DVD Forum however decided that they would only license the DVD to you - technically you own nothing - and that license is clear that you can only play DVDs on approved platforms. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that anything that doesn't have a physical dvd player in it probably isn't licensed. Not to mention that - for our readers in the United States - breaking the copy protection to move the content to a non-approved device probably contravenes the DMCA. You should do a little more research before you declare that it is 'OK'.
CDs on the other hand are subject to local laws. In Canada for example, there is a surtax on all blank media which allows you to legally copy music to a harddrive or blank disk. Again, in the United States I believe this all falls under the DMCA, which you should read thoroughly (that is if it is humanly possible to read, apparently nobody who voted for it actually got through it).
As for the Windows EULA, I tried reading it once and promptly switched to Linux... and Mac.
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