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04/17/09
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primaz
Just as I predicted that without providing a model with a touch type keyboard they are doomed to fail; guess what it looks to be any day now?
Struggling OQO seeks buyer
Model 2+ UMPC could be last ever product
Agam Shah
Struggling to stay afloat during the recession, ultramobile PC maker OQO is seeking buyers, a company spokesperson has revealed.
OQO is well-known for its innovative PC designs and in the past has received accolades for its products. However, its offerings have struggled to find buyers because of the high prices.
Rumours of OQO seeking a buy-out was first confirmed by The Wall Street Journal on Tuesday.
The company is having cash problems and views a buy-out as the best way to solve its troubles and make OQO more competitive, according to the news report. A company spokeswoman confirmed details in the report, but declined further comment.
Rumours of OQO being on the block spread after a poster on the enthusiast site Oqotalk.com suggested the company was having financial difficulties.
"OQO is attempting to sell the company. It lacks the funds to keep going, cash is tight and work hours have been reduced," said a poster named Picasso, listed as a moderator in the OQOtalk forums.
The rumours gained steam after UK retailer Expansys reportedly pulled an upcoming OQO product off shelves "due to uncertainties to stock availability" of the upcoming Model 2+ ultramobile PC, according to posting on JkOnTheRun blog.
OQO in January announced the Model 2+ design, which can deliver a full PC performance in a tiny footprint. The computer includes an OLED (organic light-emitting diode) screen and weighs only 1 pound (0.45kg). The product was received with considerable fanfare at the Consumer Electronics Show in January.
The company's cash shortage could delay the delivery of Model 2+, said Bob Rosin, OQO's senior vice president of sales and marketing told with The Wall Street Journal.
But posters on the OQOTalk have doubts about the product ever reaching the market.
"I'm sorry to say this, but the [Model] 2+ might be the last OQO we see made. I don't even think we will see it." Picasso wrote.
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05/22/09
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primaz
link
It is official OQO is now closed.
05/22/09
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Ravellar
Like i said a yearr or two ago, You have to make a clam shell device. OQO would have been ahead of the netbook market. But Noooo. some of you guys here at handtops thought i was a nut. i anot sad that thay are gone. i bought two machines from OQO and they both work well. but I never really like this form factor. now that the Market is headed for clamshell format. we all will finally get a real pocket computer.
05/25/09
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primaz
Ravellar, you are right! OQO would have been a big success if they just made it a clamshell with a touch type keyboard. All they needed to do is make it a little longer like an HP Jornada 720 handheld in size. That would have been easy to do as the size of the 720 is about 35% larger in volume compared to the old OQO. I said the same thing but the handful of geeks whom think using their thumbs on a full PC is good but the market has spoken, OQO is gone just like Flipstart.
06/13/09
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MeanSquare
primaz/revelar: I think this illustrates one of the problems with the handtop market. I wouldn't want a clamshell unit at all. The problem with clamshells (and, for that matter, touch-typing units generally) is that you have to have a surface to work off of. For those of us who want something we can use while roving, that's too much of a limitation. So two persons' perfect handtop is another person's wouldn't buy. When you've got a wide market like laptops, you can afford to bring out several models that approach people with different needs. With a market the size of the handtop market, you have to have a unit that will capture the majority or you won't sell enough to recoup costs.
06/15/09
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primaz
Meansquare, while you may want a UMPC you can use while standing like the OQO; I strongly believe there is a much larger market for a clamshell type device that provides reasonable touch type input so that it can eliminate the needs of a laptop for many mobile business people. OQO tried for so long and never could generate much sales. The problem is that if you want a thumb input device there are better devices like Pocket PC's, Blackberries, etc. that can provide that type of work. A full PC needs a touch type keyboard to be functional for most people. That is why OQO is gone. The huge market of laptops does have a very good size group that needs a full PC but would love to not carry one but in order to do that it must be pocket size and must have a good keyboard not a thumb input.
06/26/09
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MeanSquare
Well, that's kind of my point: It's that the needs/wants of users vary widely and a specific unit can't come close to meeting all of them. In a market the size of laptops, you can afford to create a unit that will capture a fraction of the market because enough people still buy it to recoup the costs of development. In a market the size of handtops, you need a unit that will meet virtually everyone's needs.
I was going to say that I don't think that's possible, but I do see one way: You need a hardware configuration that's modular and configurable so those who want slates can get it that way and those who want clamshells can get it that way. Likewise the size of the unit once assembled. Some options for small, ultraportable use and some for larger touch-typeable, full screen real estate use. Maybe some add-on like the Celio RedFly would help too.
On the other hand, it appears that Sony agrees with you to some extent. You might have noticed that their latest ultra-portable is a larger clamshell.
I will agree that the main issue with handtops is that there are other devices that make the trade-offs in different ways that prevent the market from getting larger. Laptops, smart-phones, mids, netbooks, and so on all have some overlap with the handtop market.
06/29/09
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primaz
Meansquare, sure there are many needs and no one device can meet them all but the market potential for OQO was just too tiny to even create a small niche to be profitable. To me a computer designed to primarily be used when standing is exactly the market that the Smart phones, Blackberries provide and do so with an OS better suited since they have instant on and are focused on PDA type usage.
There are plenty of slates and MIDS all of have not generate much sales. That segment is also like the OQO, a very small niche as sites like UMPC Portal have shown statistics thta UMPC's and MIDS are continuing to decline in popularity; although they never were popular to begin with.
To me at least when I think of the word handtops, I guess I think of handhelds being a full Windows OS computer small enough to fit in a pocket yet have a touch type keyboard. The handheld market I speak of is a much larger segment and does NOT need to try to provide a modular design to try to incorporate the above mentioned small niche groups at all.
Meansquare there is not one touch type keyboard full Windows computer that will fit in a jacket pocket. Another fact, there are over 115 million laptops sold each year with a user base many times that. Now only the more highly mobile people such as sales representives, marketing represetntives, sales managers, executive managers, project managers, etc. would likely want a small touch type jacket size laptop as they value mobility over the screen size and Smart Phones, Blackberries, etc. can not replace the need for them to carry a laptop everywhere but if there was a handheld small enough to carry in coat pocket and had a touch type keyboard so it would be a very functional laptop replacement that represents a huge market. Those people already carry a laptop and use it on flat surfaces, and on their laps, etc. but would rather have a pocket version so long as it can be functional. Functional for full Windows needs to be a touch type keyboard.
Sony with their P Vaio does see the importance of a touch type keyboard but the P started out only in pink, which to me follows the market it was geared for women to carry in a purse. If it were just a small amount narrower say 4.25" and shorter say 7.5", then it would be a good option for a man to carry everywhere in an insided jacket pocket. There are no handhelds with a touch type keyboard and are pocket size. That type of device would create a clear market that is not satisfied by any Smart phone, MID, Netbook or Laptop.
06/30/09
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GreatDane
primaz, with the greatest respect, you are ignoring the facts in an attempt to push your argument. The requirements for the touch type device that you describe so often are met in every aspect by the Raon Digital Everun Note. It is the correct size and shape, a true clamshell design with a keyboard large enough to touch type on, and a dual core processor to boot. At the price, it should have sold millions and millions of units if your argument is correct. According to the figures I have seen, it has been significantly less successful than the OQO model 02 to date.
There have been a number of "touch type" style clamshell handtops to date, ranging from the Vulcan Flipstart and early Sony Handtops through to the current Sony P models. None of them have set the world alight as far as sales are concerned, and the two leading sellers in this segment of the market remain the Sony UX and OQO.
Move to netbooks, and the sales volumes climb. But look at the prices! And so I belive that it is not so much form factor, but price that has been the limiting factor in the number of handtop sales.
Unfortunatly for true handtops, buyers are even more price sensitive at present, and the erosion of this segment of the market looks likely to continue for the forseable future, touch type keyboards or not.
06/30/09
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primaz
GreatDane,
The Raon Digital Everun Note is NOT the correct size to enable anyone to carry it their jacket pocket. That computer is 4.64" inches wide by 7.87" long and 1.10" in height. The length and height are fine but the crucial dimension of the width being 4.64" wide DOES NOT enable it to fit in an inside jacket pocket as most pockets can NOT take a device greater than 4.25" in width.
The Flipstart IS NOT a touch type keyboard but rather a thumb keyboard like the OQO. The same with the early Sony keyboards they were not touch type input. The Sony P is touch type but also suffers from a width of 4.5" which is TO WIDE to fit in a typical jacket inside pocket.
Thus none of the devices you mentioned are a touch type keyboard computer that can fit in an inside jacket pocket. It is not price but the lack of them providing an portable enough design that also enables them to provide good touch type input so that they can replace a laptop. The momment that they are too large to fit inside an jacket pocket they all need to be carried via a bag, briefcase, etc. and at that point their smaller size is not making them much more mobiile than a laptop or subnotebook since they all need a bag to carry them around.
GreatDane there are no clamshell UMPC's that provide a touch type keyboard and can fit in your jacket pocket. That is a design that can generate big sales.
07/06/09
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MeanSquare
I'll try one more time 
GD and I are trying to get across that you have a very particular criteria. You want a touch-typeable device that you can fit into your pocket. Those are good criteria, but they're not shared by everyone else. Originally, my criteria was pocketable, full-OS (for compatibility with certain programs), and capable of docking to create a more desktop-like workstation. As such, the OQO and Sony UX were just about perfect, although I did have some issues with the cost. For others, pocketability isn't absolutely necessary, but full-OS robustness is. That would make a net-book or even small note-book a reasonable choice (for them). For others, full-OS capability may not be an absolute necessity as long as they have basic functionality (word processing, spreadsheets, browsing, e-mail). Depending on size criteria, a MID or even a smartphone (possibly with a larger keyboard option or something like a RedFly) would work.
The thing is that everyone has a different set of criteria and different "thresholds," beyond which they won't consider a device.
I think the problem was not any _specific_ lack on the part of the OQO, but that collectively, it just didn't meet enough people's criteria to make enough for OQO to stay in business.
07/06/09
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primaz
Meansquare and GD,
I agree there are different needs for different people but devices like the OQO that have a full PC operating system but only thumb input have NOT generated very many sales. They may meet your needs but clearly after all of these years and with not much sales to show for it, the format you may like only satisfies a very small segment of the market. To me regarding OQO specifically I do feel the lack of a touch type keyboard is the key flaw that limits the amount of buyers. They had been trying to sell the same size device with no touch type keyboard for over 5 years with very weak results.
OQO was not the only one, Flipstart and other umpc's/mids have also found very weak sales with devices only providing thumb input or pen only input.
UMPC sales and interest has never generated much demand and is continuing to decline (See survey on umpcportal.com . I would like UMPC's to be popular. To me it seems so obvious on how they can accomplish large sales. There are hundreds of millions of mobile business people needing a full PC and there is a good a percentage of those users whom want a basic pocket laptop. That is what I and many others hoped UMPC's would provide but so far they have not.
Let me try one more time. What type of input do most people prefer to use for a full PC operating system GD & Meansquare? It is a touch type keyboard. It is not thumb input nor pen input. Remember technology is supposed to enhance how we work not try to make us use an input method NOT preferred such as thumb input for a full PC. I am not talking phones but full PC's; the majority of full PC users like and prefer a touch type keyboard.
UMPC's have only sold at best 350k worldwide including every model of every brand during 2008. Remember the days of the handhelds? They sold well over 2.3 million a year just including the devices that were jacket pocket in size such as the Psion 5mx or HP Jornada 720 series. While those were not full PC OS computers as the technology was not available to make a full PC that small it did show that millions wanted a touch type keyboard computer in their pocket and tried to use an OS that only had limited PC functionality. Now we have the technology to create a full PC that can fit in a jacket pocket that would be the size of the old Psion 5mx and provide what millions of the huge laptop users want a simple pocket laptop but so far UMPC's have had the wrong size and type of input for people to want to buy one.
There is a huge market that is untapped so far and would drawf the thumb input UMPC's you may refer to as handtops; that market is the handheld UMPC's. What is needed is a UMPC that when folded will fit in a typical inside jacket pocket and also has a built in touch type keyboard. Psion proved that at only 6.9" x 3.6" a keyboard that small could provide good touch type input. Now that UMPC technology is here, a modern version of something like a Psion 5mx could be created that has a full PC operating system. Jacket pockets can actually take a maximum size of 7.5" x 4.25" and if a UMPC was that size and built around the type of keyboard the mighty Psion 5mx had it would be a fantastic pocket laptop. It could be a simple clamshell like the Psion 5mx or a more creative design like the Dragonfly being proposed but the bottom line is that most people will NOT buy a full PC computer unless it has a touch type keyboard. There is a huge market for a pocket laptop yet not one company has created it yet.
07/07/09
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GreatDane
primaz, you are missing the point. Meansquare is correct that there are different needs in the market, including but not exclusivly a Psion type device.
Yes, I do believe that there might be a market for a Psion type device as you describe it. Will that market be sufficiently substantial to make it worth while designing and producing such a unit? Highly unlikely. Will such a device sell millions of units and redefine computers as we know them? Almost certainly not!
You claim that at their peak, handhelds sold 2.3 million units a year, and use this as the rational for the claim that a modern version would do as well. That is unlikely in the extreme. The age of the handhelds, like the age of the dinosaurs, is past. The world has moved on. Back when the Psion was king, there were no smart phones given away for nothing on a contract, there were no netbooks, no cheap notebooks, in fact, there was no competition for the handheld at all.
Lets face it, today a modern Psion handtop would be crippled by the same thing that has limited the entire handtop market to date. Handtops are too expensive for their size, and have to fight for pocket space with an ever increasingly powerful and capable cell phone with a better battery life etc.
Price is the ultimate killer of the handtop concept. OQO failed because they were too expensive, they had too many quality problems, and the market for any expensive handtop was just too small, forcing them to push the price per unit up, try to cut corners, making them too expensive and creating too many quality problems, and round and round we go.
OQO and Sony are the two most successful players in the handtop market to date (in the time following the age of the handheld). Sony continues to experiment with this type of unit, but their primary market is Japan. For the OQO's and the rest who try to sell their units in the USA and Europe, where people tend to think that a small unit should cost less (see netbooks), the low powered Atom CPU based netbook units built to a price will continue to dominate, and the high powered handtops will continue to fail, regardless of keyboard type.
In market where the modern Psion would have to compete with Netbooks and Notebooks and Cell Phones and MID devices and all the rest, it is likely to fare no better than any other handtop has done to date.
Sorry primaz, yours is a pipe dream. The reason that no manufacturer has made your modern Psion is because they know what you refuse to accept, it would not be all that successful. Would I like one and buy one if it was available? Probably! Would millions of others do the same? Not in this universe!
07/07/09
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primaz
GD,
I never said exclusively but I believe that the market for a touch type keyboard computer that will fit in a jacket pocket is much larger in market size than thumb input full PC's.
The age of the handhelds did have Palms, and Pocket PC's. There were also laptops available cheap. Handhelds can provide a niche as they can be a laptop relacement or alternative for a business person highly mobile. They do not compete against cell phones or smart phones as a modern handheld if create would have full Windows PC operating system which would put them in a clear different use than phones/smart phones.
The entire UMPC market at it's peak last year only sold 350k Greatdane that is pretty weak Psion alone sold more than the entire UMPC market in less than a year! The UMPC and MID markets problem is due to the fact they do not provide the desired input that people want for a full Windows OS and software so they consider it an expensive toy. Their size and input is much the same of a cell phone or smart phone which is a huge mistake as that is not what people want for full Windows.
OQO lovers keep trying to justify the problems due to price but that is not the problem. People use full PC computers with keyboards NOT their thumbs. OQO never sold many units a year. In 2008 they only sold somewhere between 8000 to 15,000 if you divide their yearly sales by the cost of a typical OQO and if you include a couple of accessories the number can be 8000 or lower per year. OQO was never popular nor successful and the same goes for Sony prior to the Sony P. People do not find a full PC and that type of computer use very desirable if all you provide is thumb input.
Every mobile computer that had a full PC operating system that does not provide a touch type keyboard has had dismal sales, yet the ones with keyboards have done very well. A modern Psion would provide the only jacket size full PC computer that provides touch type input and that would differentiate it from any laptop or netbook as those are too large. Cell phones and smart phones are not even competition as they do not provide a full PC OS. Thus a modern Psion would have no real competition. MIDS and the other UMPC's with thumb input or pen input would be the only competition and we already have seen the markets reaction to both of those groups of devices, weak, weak weak.
sorry GD but believing that people are wanting to use thumb input for a full PC operating system and software if the price was cheap is what I call a pipe dream. There are MIDS right now cheap that can run full Windows and they are not selling in big numbers and the reason is the same as the OQO, full Windows OS and software is just very useful with two thumbs.
07/07/09
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primaz
Full Windows operating systems and softwares are just not very useful with two thumbs GD. No matter how cheap you make them if they lack a touch type keyboard they will always be toys people will not want to buy.
07/09/09
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GreatDane
primaz,
All the rationalization and unsubstantiated claims to the contrary, there is no evidence that the device that you are pushing will be much more successful than any of the other handtops that have been released and have either failed or had limited success. The opposite is in fact true, that nobody in the industry has rushed out to try and emulate the success of the once "mighty" handheld is a fair indication that the major players in the market do not see a viable future for such a device. While that is sad, especially in light of the blind, fanatical, unwavering support that you offer for such a device, it is how things stand.
A parallel from the automotive industry might shed some light on why no-one has produced the new Psion: Let us take a look at the VW Beetle. In its time it was the must successful car ever. It lasted virtually unchanged for decades, while other cars were lucky to survive 5+ years. So when VW decided to release a new version of the car, one might have expected it to do as well. Ten years down the road, only a handful have been made and sold, the new Beetle is not even a main stream car.
Why this change in fortunes? Times change, peoples needs change, fashions change, and the competition changes.
Now take the Psion and other such devices. Contrary to your previous statements, there were NO cheap notebooks available at the same time, no netbooks, no smart phones, practically no competition at all. People bought what was available, the Psion, the Palm, and a few other PDA's. Fast forward to today. You can surf the net, answer e-mail and all those other things on a cell phone, as well as make phone calls. If you need more, a full sized lightweight netbook will not break the bank, and even a laptop is a cheap alternative. The number of people who need a very compact device with a full computer OS at a high price is small, 350000 a year if your figures are right. And that is for every type of device with every type of keyboard and no keyboards at all. Times have changed, peoples needs and wants have changed, and thats the end of it. The Psion and its compatriots are dead, morn them if you must, and then get on with your life, they are not coming back by the look of things.
We all know how you feel, we just do not all agree. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it is more than a little irritating when one single person attempts to force a single fanatically held point of view on everyone else. Perhaps you could now give it a break and let a few other points of view be aired?
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