Handtops, UMPC - Life after Flipstart?

04/30/08 + mhoepfin

Had a couple bad Vista crashes on my Flipstart and got frustrated and decided to go back to the OQO 02 (which I haven't touched since I got the FS).

Well, it wasn't a pretty experience. Missed the FS keyboard, screen and performance. And lord I forgot how LOUD the fan in the 02 is.

So I restored the Flipstart and I am now back to the best UMPC.

Any of you guys tried to make the trip back to some other device and found it's not up to the FS?

04/30/08 + Picasso

keyboard on the flipstart I find a little loud. Well I dont have a problem with it but thhe woman does.

04/30/08 + mhoepfin

The backlight or the clickity click?

04/30/08 + snowviper

Hm.. Vista problem. I'm starting to get some problem with the vista. My wifi keep dropping, and it is very sluggish despite I have new HDD on it.

05/01/08 + Nobody99

I have no idea why anyone uses Vista on the Flipstart. Athough I hear it runs well, XP still needs less resources and surely runs better and more stable. If my Flipstart came with Vista, I would install XP instead. I also have the problem of my Wifi dropping every 10-15 mins more or less.

In my opinion there is no UMPC that matches or exceeds the Flipstart right now, they are either let down by loud fans, less battery, slower (Via) chip or poor design. I do think that with the increase in competition, someone will eventually get it right though. I would have considered the HP 2133 Mini-Note PC if they didn't use a Via chip. I liked the fact they used a powered USB port too.

05/01/08 + mhoepfin

Vista actually runs great on the Flipstart. There is nothing to complain about. I think I hosed things due to me trying to install the Sprint program to manage my Novatel USB data modem.

I think my analogy of the Flipstart = Treo holds true. Although the Treo isn't the prettiest, smallest, highest spec'd, it was designed right and a lot of thought was put into the little things to make great phone. Same holds for the Flipstart. The things on paper that you *think* it needs, more memory, bigger HD, slightly smaller size, are aren't so necessary after all. I've read that Flipstart had folks from Psion on the team that did the design, and it's obvious that they knew what they were doing (if only the Infopane wasn't such an abortion on the software side).

05/01/08 + snowviper

Well, Mine was disabled every 10-15 (that was yesterday) but I reload the driver so it seem to be ok now.
Vista is somewhat sluggish than XP and longer boot time but it fast on waking up, and much prettier too

05/05/08 + primaz

Flipstart had ex-Psion on the team? That did not help their key problem the momment I saw prototypes over a year before they made it. The problem is that they had a good concept put full windows in a small form factor but forgot about functionality.

How does everyone use and prefer to input full windows? They all use and prefer a touch type keyboard. What is the only full windows mobile device mainstream has bought? A laptop. OK now think logically, yes people want full windows in a smaller form factor but why? They want it small enough to carry everywhere so that means jacket pocket size. Ok, so they want a touch type keyboard ok, then you need to follow what Psion and others did make it about 7 to 7.3" long, by 3.6" to 4" in depth so it will fit in a jacket pocket's width, and make it under 1.25" in height.

To me it was so obvious nobody would buy them. If it can not fit in a jacket then you will need a bag to carry it so most would then group it into the same category as subnotebooks, etc. It is not cool to have a "man purse". Their real problem is so simple it was not the right size to be carried everywhere and it had thumb input which nobody wants for full windows.

Recent Blog: New Handheld Sharp has just released the D4 -UMPC handheld!

05/05/08 + kamodt

There were no ex-Psion people on the FlipStart team. There were people from other projects, mostly Windows CE, but no Psion folks. As for why it was the size it was, it came down to trying to optimize the screen experience while keeping it as small as possible. A 7" display would make it too big, yet a 4.5" (Sony UX) made it too small to read. After that, it's a matter of cramming a Pentium-M board design into a small package and avoiding too much heat. The final design came in thicker than desired, but that was mostly because of the decision to make the high-capacity battery the standard battery instead of the thinner slimline battery.

Contrary to what people think, there was a great deal of interest from vertical market users for FlipStart. The issue was that this meant lower volume sales and that wasn't acceptable.

Recent Blog: Some choices

05/05/08 + LMc

The "man purse" issue is interesting. I too avoided that size of a transport bag. For some reason, I had no problem with a messenger bag; but it took me a while to adjust to the nylon FlipStart bag from a "fashion/guy" thing.

The advantage of having a PC with me, instead of a PDA, has gotten me over the fashion thing. I carry it around almost where ever I go during the business day.

05/06/08 + Pollywog

I found that the carrier that came with the FlipStart did not exclude moisture, so I use a shoulder bag to carry it.
I was not disappointed with the FlipStart and I wonder if the company will continue to make them. My FlipStart is also running Linux via Virtualbox.

05/06/08 + primaz

"As for why it was the size it was, it came down to trying to optimize the screen experience while keeping it as small as possible. A 7" display would make it too big, yet a 4.5" (Sony UX) made it too small to read. After that, it's a matter of cramming a Pentium-M board design into a small package and avoiding too much heat. The final design came in thicker than desired, but that was mostly because of the decision to make the high-capacity battery the standard battery instead of the thinner slimline battery.

Contrary to what people think, there was a great deal of interest from vertical market users for FlipStart. The issue was that this meant lower volume sales and that wasn't acceptable."

I am talking about a 7" x 3.6" rough size screen just like all the clamshell Windows CE handhelds had. That is not too big to fit in a jacket pocket. Making it the size Flipstart did made it not very functional. It seems so obvious to me but I guess techies do not see it? People use full windows with a touch type keyboard so they will NOT want a thumb input. Thus if you made a 1/2 vga screen that is long and narrow it will enable a clamshell UMPC to be small enough to fit in a large jacket pocket and have the room for a real touch type keyboard like the Psion 5mx and HP Jornada 720 proved over a decade ago. People want small enough to carry but also large enough for functionality, that is their big mistake.

I run a mobile workforce and yes vertical markets have great interest in a full windows computer that is small enough to carry everywhere but I can see why they would not buy a Flipstart and it is the same reason I pointed out. Both vertical and personal business users have the same interests, a full windows computer that is basically a jacket size laptop. If they just copied the windows CE handhelds like the HP Jornada 720's they would have had big sales both in consumers and vertical markets.

Recent Blog: New Handheld Sharp has just released the D4 -UMPC handheld!

05/06/08 + wodin

LMc said: "The "man purse" issue is interesting. I too avoided that size of a transport bag. For some reason, I had no problem with a messenger bag; but it took me a while to adjust to the nylon FlipStart bag from a "fashion/guy" thing."

I may be the exception, but I like the executive man purse. It is about the same size as a medium DayRunner, albeit a little thicker and heavier, and fits well in a business environment.

05/06/08 + kamodt

@primaz - I hear what you're saying as I was on the team that released Windows CE. Our partners, like HP, found that the 1/2 VGA displays frustrated people who wanted to see an entire page. So, we worked with the OEMs to build the Jupiter devices with VGA+ displays (circa 1998) and those did moderately well. Interestingly enough, those devices are exactly the size of the current crop of "eePC"-type devices that are selling today. I believe Jupiter devices would have been much more popular if they had sold for under $500 but unfortunately the OEMs couldn't price them low enough.

I have a Jornada 720 and it's actually bigger than my FlipStart (lengthwise) but my customer research showed that users would not accept a 1/2 VGA display. Our boss also wanted the display we used, as well as the thumb-keyboard, so that's what we went with.

Recent Blog: Some choices

05/06/08 + primaz

Kamodt,

If you look at the entire UMPC worldwide sales of every brand as IDC listed in the 12/07 Forbes article only 350K sold. Compare that with the Windows CE handhelds which I found sold over 2.3 million per year and that was just the HP Jornada, Psion, Sharp type handhelds that were jacket size. To me 1/2 vga is a lot better than a tiny screen and the most important part to me is the input method of having a touch type keyboard. I think if you used the handheld form factor but now used the UMPC internals to provide full windows they would sell a lot more then the 2.3 million they did with Windows CE.

Yes I still use a Jornada and it is bigger than a Flipstart but only in length which to me is much better as it provides a touch type input; yet it is much more mobile than a flipstart as you can store a Jornada in any jacket pocket. Too bad your boss wanted the thumb input because the past history shows people want a touch type input for full Windows. I think your customer research was flawed as the sales demonstrate that. Just look at the Psion and HP Jornada they each sold more per year than the entire UMPC market did as a whole in 2007.

Jupitor devices in 1998? you are not talking about the HP 820 or the Psion netbook? are you? those did not sell anywhere close to what the jacket size windows CE's did. The HP 820 and devices like that would never sell well as they were too big and most would just opt for a subnotebook or laptop even if they dropped the price. People pay a premium for size but only if it functions well; thus a touch type keyboard is needed. The only thing that killed Windows CE HPC was MS abandoning it to dominate Palms market with their pocket pc. The EEPC to me are just cheap laptops and price is their main selling point coupled with having normal touch type keyboard as they look like any laptop or subnotebook.

Even OQO sells very few and is not that profitable as they have no funds to come out with a new form factor or make any real changes. I read a recent article that said they had sales of 20 million. You divide that by the average price of a unit with accessories and you have a mere 8000 to 15000 units. That is so weak. If your boss went with the HP Jornada form factor you guys would still be in business and would be the leaders in the mobile market getting tons of press.

Recent Blog: New Handheld Sharp has just released the D4 -UMPC handheld!